A Solution to Torture? A Conversation Starter...

Torture Scenario: I walk out of my front door and notice my neighbor is waterboarding a stranger. What do I do? I can't call the cops because I live out in the middle of the boondocks - no police available. I ask my neighbor to stop torturing the person. They won't. Should I walk back into my house, grab a 9mm and point it at the torturer and ask again? Then what? Pull the trigger? I don't want to kill them, I just want to stop the torture.

Given that - can you see the analogy with torture going on in the United States today? The only difference I see is that instead of the torture going on in my front yard and somewhere like Gitmo - is DISTANCE. Well - one other difference - in the case of the U.S. Government commiting the crime of torture - I AM ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE IT IS BEING DONE ON MY BEHALF WITH MY TAX MONEY.

It seems that the debate is over. Look at the poll at the top of this blog - everybody wants torturers to go to jail.

So, Obama won't do anything - we've asked and given him time. HE SPIT IN OUR FACE!

Congress won't do anything - we've given them time. THEY'VE SPIT IN OUR FACE!


Remember the bailout? Masses of citizens flooded their Congressmen with letters and emails - guess what? Obama and McCain both went right back up to Washington and voted FOR the bailout against the wishes of the American public - and against the best interests of the American public. THEY SPIT IN OUR FACE!

So - what can be done about torture? There are fellow HUMAN BEINGS being abused right now.

Perhaps it is time to revisit Mike Gravel's NATIONAL INITIATIVE WHICH IF PUT INTO LAW EMPOWERS THE CITIZENRY. Is this a good solution? Is this a perfect solution? I don't know - but I'm opening up the discussion. We need action - take a look - debate it - talk about it - consider it - come up with something else. But let's all find a way to get past the smokescreen of propaganda and move toward workable solutions.


What is the National Initiative for Democracy?

"The National Initiative for Democracy (NI4D) is a proposed Constitutional amendment which recognizes the Peoples' right to make laws and a federal law which spells out orderly procedures for the People to develop and vote on laws.
The Democracy Amendment, a proposed amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, will:
recognize the legislative power of the people to make laws
permit the people to amend the constitution by holding two successive elections, more than six months but less than one year apart
sanction the election for The National Initiative permitting the enactment of the Democracy Amendment and the Democracy Act (*),
create the Electoral Trust to administer the procedures established by the Democracy Amendment and Act,
outlaw the use of funds from non-natural persons (for example corporate funds) in initiative elections under this article, and
outlaw non-natural persons (for example corporations) from sponsoring initiatives under this article.
The Democracy Act, a proposed federal law, will:
set out deliberative procedures to be used by citizens to create laws by initiative,
describe the key responsibilities of the Electoral Trust which shall administer the initiative process on behalf of the people,
appropriate funds for the Electoral Trust from the United States Treasury, and
specify the threshold of affirmative votes needed to enact this legislation (*).
The National Initiative does not change or eliminate Congress, the President, or the judicial system. Laws created by initiative must still stand up in the courts just like laws created by Congress. The National Initiative adds an additional check –– the People –– to our system of checks and balances, while setting up a working partnership between the People and their elected representatives.
Voting "yes" means that you are for the Democracy Amendment and Democracy Act
Voting "no" means that you are against the Democracy Amendment and Democracy Act
(*) This legislation will be considered enacted when the number of affirmative votes exceeds half the total number of government-validated votes cast in the presidential election occurring immediately prior to this election's certification. A total of 131,131,981 people voted in the 2008 presidential election, therefore at this time 65,565,991 "yes" votes for the National Initiative are required."

We already know our elected representatives are UNRESPONSIVE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC'S WILL TO STOP TORTURE! Peaceful change is the goal.

Remember JFK's words:
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. "


  1. ...or we can sit around and wait for their terms to end - this means a 14-year-old in captivity in two years will be a 16-year-old in captivity. Great way to spend one's formative years - eh?

  2. I fully agree with the "go back in to the house and get the 9 mm and pull the trigger" solution. We should have 0 tolerance with those that represent us. Misrepresentation damages trust and our whole world thrives on trust. Trust in commerce, trust in security, trust that the sun will rise tomorrow. At the end of the day all we have is our word. If someone breaks that trust they may as well have put a gun to our heads and pulled the trigger. Absolutely, I believe that those who have defamed us, and those who have aided them in avoiding begin brought to justice should be punished by death. They have acted against the wishes of the people of this nation and have done irreputable harm to us. That my friends is the definition of TREASON. It is time to enforce the law and bring our criminal officials to justice, publicly, swiftly and with out mercy.

  3. Also as far as initiative goes, it's a novel idea but I don't want the majority making laws that are unfair to the minority. This is NOT a democracy this IS a republic! In the end, we have a system that allows us to override a non responsive government and it is garunteed in the second amendment. Do what the rest of us are doing. Load up, stock pile and say your prayers, give us liberty or give us death.

  4. Thanks for participating anonymous above - and thank you for clearly voicing your opposition to the National Initiative. I wish more people would voice their views as well.

    I agree this is NOT a democracy - after all it was a DEMOCRACY that brought about the silencing of Socrates when he was the MINORITY and exercised UNPOPULAR speech.

  5. if you want my most honest assessment, when you have a population that is so dumbed down or flat out ignorant of everything from how to spell words properly to world geography and history, how can you expect these same ignoramus' to rule themselves in a democracy?

    for a real democracy to work, it requires the population be informed and educated. this does not mean 'has a television set', it means, knowing what the heck is going on in the world, knowing something about history, not the american garbage version taught in public schools, but actual world history you have to find yourself once you get old enough to realize the shit they taught you in school was propaganda and lies.

    for the population to self-rule, these are imperatives. otherwise, it's impossible for a meaningful debate, because you can sit at home and have a much more meaningful debate with your house cat, which, in all liklihood, has a higher awareness of world political situations and issues than the average american citizen does.

    there has to be some form of government or maybe a better term is 'governance' where this quaint concept called Rule Of Law is so solid and irrefutably real that nobody can circumvent that, and the sense of universal fairness makes people want to participate in the democratic processes, such as being on a jury, or voting.

    right now, there is no Rule Of Law in america. There is no imbued sense of decency and humanity and empathy for those who are less fortunate amongst us. there just is not.

    there was a book written in the last twenty years by a british historian that, in effect, claimed that western civilization was 'de-evolving' and that at some point, it would completely fall apart and people would resort to jungle rules and cannibalism. back when that book came out, I actually sought it out in a bookstore and picked it up and read a few chapters, and put it down. I though; "there is no way it will get this bad.."

    many years later, it has, in fact, gotten this bad. as the economic situation further deteriorates, the 'safety net' we once had in human decency and civility has eroded so much that it's not there anymore. it's gone.

    "Lord of the Flies" is what we are headed for now, with tribal rule, and Rule Of Law replaced fully with The End Justifies The Means.

    that's where self-governance is at in america in the year 2009. a pack of hyena's has a better order of civilization than america has.

  6. Again the comments are the best part of this blog.

  7. Oh, about "Lord of the Flies" - I had to read that in high school - it was an awesome book. Everybody in the class seemed to love it - it was a favorite.

    Recently I asked my nephew if he had to read Orwell's "1984" in high school - it shocked the shit out of me to hear that his school didn't require it. Somehow that book was an 'event' for my generation.

  8. yep, Jack Rabbit, I think thru to grade 12 now, it's basically 'glorified' daycare. I don't think they teach shit anymore. certainly not critical thinking, for damned sure.

    speaking of teaching, here's one for ya:

    years ago, my spouse's brother, who was a high school teacher, and I, were watching a PBS program about the South. They kept mentioning 'textile production' and he sat there, grinned at me, and quite matter of factly, said; "until last year, I didn't know what the fuck TEXTILES were.."

    I think after I picked my jaw up off the floor, and relocated it into my face, I had to ask him; "you know, you had to have heard that term about a zillion times in school yourself, and you're telling me you never had the curiousity to look the word up??"

    "nope", he shot back. I thought he was putting me on at first, but now I was certain he wasn't.

    my spouse, his sister, was also a teacher, she was a language teacher and another story altogether about her intelligence and knowledge, and overall ability to converse about just about anything because of her obvious differences with her rather un-inquisitive brother. I told her what her brother said, and again, got to see her jaw drop, but in defense of him, she said; "do you really think he was telling you the truth??"

    "Oh, absolutely!", I told her.

    Well, I had met a lot of school teachers, being my spouse was one, I even donated time to her school now and then, using the skills I had that the admin people in bldg. 807 never sent them for help. I guess that in the long run, I had to accept that the kids in her brother's classroom were going to get a sub-par education from him, strictly because I doubted whether he had the ability to get them to be inquisitive and ask questions and indeed think for themselves. I can only imagine how many pupils he has cranked out. His sister, on the other hand, a french teacher, has consistently received award after award after award for her 'excellence' as an educator. Though she and I have long since parted ways, she was by far the most intelligent woman I have ever had the privelege of knowing, and loving.

    I guess what I'm getting to here is that the subject matter isn't probably as important as the teacher is, and if the teacher is a true educator, you can probably have a very dry and boring subject brought to 'life' in that classroom. I still remember students eagerly greeting her when I was there in the classroom fixing things; "good morning, madamoiselle!!", they all cheerfully would say to her, with big smiles on their faces.

    I myself had a handful of teachers like my now ex spouse, who weren't there for the paycheck. One, a history teacher who also had Linda Ronstadt as his student, in Tucson. Another, in a european school on a military base, in Vicenza. I can never thank all of them enough for making me use my brain and to ask questions.

    and to 'madamoiselle', my 'ex' who taught french in that little classroom in Richfield, you gave to your students a gift they can never, ever repay you. I think you know that though.

  9. My first exposure to Orwells's 1984 - my brother Tommy brought the book home

    One year later my older sister Ang brought it home

    One year later my sister Mick brought it home

    One year later I read it

  10. To commenter May 20, 10:27 :

    Apologies for my tardy response: Thank you for sharing that bit of wisdom with us. Yes, education is big, big, big - motivating minds to question question question - to persevere - to stand completely alone if necessary - taking decisions, taking risks - being wrong once in awhile and getting over it - teachers who know how to fan the flames of a young mind, who can teach the student to harness that unbounded energy that is the human mind, this is an art not possessed by many, but a few - how do we support them? How do we make sure they are free to practice their noble art unfettered?

    We have to get the federal govt. out of the schools I'm sad to say - because anyone taking money has to pay that money back - and payback comes with puppet strings.


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