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I wouldn't be fair if I didn't call attention to another religious zealot - this time on the Islamic side - making statements that should be condemned by people sharing his faith who claim Islam is a peaceful religion. From the article:
"A MELBOURNE Islamic cleric has told his male followers they can force their wives to have sex and hit them if
they are disobedient."
You can read the article and see the linked video about this Islamic cleric Samir Abu Hamza (HERE) . I can only take this article and video at face value - is it true?
As an American I must say again that I don't care what your religion is - this kind of talk from representatives of any religion destroys any chance of winning over the hearts and minds of ... well...me. I can't speak for anyone else but I think it is reasonable to conclude others will share my reaction. Where is the outcry from the Islamic community to prove this man isn't your representative? What are the rest of us supposed to think?
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Aw boo hoo..
ReplyDeleteWhat does that mean?
ReplyDeletejacob rabbit,your not american
ReplyDeleteBut I am an American
ReplyDeleteoh no your not
ReplyDeleteam too
ReplyDeletebye bye yacoub,see you around
ReplyDeletebuh bye
ReplyDeleteWhy do Muslims have to answer for every guy with a mouth? Someone say something controversial and we gotta all speak out against him?
ReplyDeleteMan if I waved my hand at every fly that came near me I would have a full time job.
Do like we Muslims do, ignore him. Most of us hear about these nut jobs from you non Muslims and not from other Muslims.
Stop digging these idiots up out of obscure corners and giving them global air time.
hey jack-off why don't you check yourself
ReplyDeleteWow, ask a couple questions - I suppose some questions are off limits? Take a look around on this blog - I'm not showing bias if you look at past articles.
ReplyDeleteBy the way he's in the news - that's not my fault. But so far the responses to my questions are met with hostility.
Why do Muslims have to answer for every guy with a mouth?
ReplyDelete-No one is asking you to, only extremists that are influencing public opinion in the name of religion.-
Someone say something controversial and we gotta all speak out against him?
-no, but he is talking about beating women - we have laws against that so problems arise - plus hitting women is viewed negatively-
Man if I waved my hand at every fly that came near me I would have a full time job.
-I too find flies annoying and minimize my counterattacks on them to save time-
Do like we Muslims do, ignore him. Most of us hear about these nut jobs from you non Muslims and not from other Muslims.
-I'd like to but America is being drawn into bloodbaths between people of opposing religious beliefs many of us don't understand - so when something like this story pops up in the news we ask questions-
Stop digging these idiots up out of obscure corners and giving them global air time.
-News is news - nobody had to dig anything up. Public opinion matters
jr
In Islam - you are not allowed to force anyone to do anything unless there is an extreme need for it and common sense attached with it.
ReplyDeleteExample: you find out your kid is hanging out with a drug dealer, you can go to that drug dealers house and pull your kid out of it, no matter what your kid thinks about it.
Another Example: you feel that a certain individual is risky to your family, a bad influence and will try to instigate problems in your home - you can force your wife and children to NOT let this person in your home again.
The father, in Islam, is the leader of the family. He has a decent amount of authority of his wife and children (but not ABSOLUTE authority). But this does not mean he sits around all day yelling orders at them. There are SEVERAL other values and principals taught by Islam that encourage mutual cooperation and compassion towards ones wife and children. Especially if a father asks his family to do something opposed to Islamic law, they are NOT allowed to listen to him at that point. The RIGHTS of every part involved are very well defined in Islam for those interested to read about them in more detail. And if one does do their research, they will realized that Islam truly has the BEST guidance for a family to live in peace, harmony and productivity.
1 - forcing your wife to sleep with you. Like I mentioned before, a man can force his family to do things to prevent harm and danger from them or to guide them to the right path. What danger is a man avoiding if he is forcing his wife to sleep with him to the point it would be conisdered rape? There is no wisdom in this act, so why would anyone think this is acceptable.
However, in Islamic law - there are certain things as marital rights. One of the rights a husband has over his wife is that he may sleep with her whenever he wants to, except the times where they would not be allowed to have sexual intercourse such as during her menstrual cycle or if one of them is keeping a daytime fast for the sake of God. In all other instances, a man has the RIGHT to ask his wife for relations. What is the wisdom in this? There are several! But lets just discuss a few and move onto the next common sense thing. One, if a woman wants to have sex and a man doesn't, can they? It depends if the man can function, meaning get an erection. Sexual intercourse depends much on the husband having an erection - therefore when he is ready, it is usually the best time to have sex. Islam encourages sexual relations because it brings a man and woman closer, keeps the away from fornication/adultery and creates children. This is JUST one principal about relations in a marriage. There are many more like how a man needs to try his best to please his wife, etc and she also has rights to ask him for relations when she wants.
BUT - now use common sense and lets apply other Islamic laws - in Islam, you have to treat everyone as if you would like to be treated. You cannot also HARM anyone, physically or mentally. Nor can you literally force someone to do something, unless as we discussed before there is an emergency or dire situation where a man or woman needs to change the situation for peoples safety.
So can a man force his wife, who is refusing over and over and over agian to have relations? of course he can FORCE her, thats his choice and would be considered rape - but that would be against Islam. You cannot physically pick up your wife and throw her down and FORCE her against her will.
However, in Islam, if the wife has no real reason not to sleep with her husband - meaning she does not suffer from any pain or overburdening phsycological situation at the time, it is her duty as a wife to please her husband - and vice versa (the husband should also try his best even if he does not feel like sleeping with this wife). That is how you take care of one anothers feelings. This is all in Islamic principals and laws. Is everyone clear on this? I hope so - so lets stop the dumb hype this video of who knows is getting, and lets move on.
2 - beating ones wife. Can you BEAT your wife? Can you BEAT your kids? Can you BEAT your neighbors? Can you BEAT yourself? In Islam, there are times when it is allowed for a person to use physical force against another person. In self defense, to avoid a tragedy (pushing someone out of the way of falling bricks), etc. In terms of using physical force within your home there are several rules. Let me explain to you at the outset that ONLYY in rare circumstances can you use physical force against another in your house. When you are raising your children, sometimes you have to spank them to teach them a listen. Islam DOES NOT allow for a parent to hit his child, EVEN an ANIMAL, ANY ANIMAL, in the face. You are not ALLOWED to hit anyone or any ANIMAL in the face in Islam. When you spank your child, you are NOT allowed to inflict pain on the child - it is to scare the child a bit and invoke certain fear in him so that he may respect your authority until they later realize that "hey mom was right about me not sticking my finger in the electric socket". And you are NOT allowed to spank your child from your OWN anger - meaning you cannot spank him because the kids ticks you off and to relive your anger you hit him. It is only for discplinary reasons.
NOW with a man's wife, all the same rules apply, except that you are not raising your wife as if she is a child. Hitting a wife in Islam, without inflicting any pain, without touching her face, and without emotionally damaging her will be allowed in a situation that is severe such as preventing your wife from danger when she is too much of an emotional state to think with reason, or preventing her from doing something severly horrible in the religion such as adultery or etc. The rule is there to deal with certain situations where a woman's emotional state might be soo gone, that to prevent her from harm, you use force that does not inflict any PAIN - it is a last resort and just to wake someone up and strike temporary fear in them to prevent them from doing something crazy.
It is important to note that, a truly practicing Muslim will never in his life think about hitting his wife - its just not something that would be necessary - it is a rule that is there to remind fathers and husbands that their women/wives are ALSO their family like their children, not just some women they sleep with and have romantic dinners with. Husbands are responsible to a great extent for the safety of their families, including their wives.
So, what was the guy talking about in the video? I didn't even watch the video. It doesn't matter what he was saying because this is really what you are allowed to do. So, if anyone with common sense analyzes the situation, they will realized that NO a man cannot FORCE his wife to sleep with him and NO a man cannot BEAT his wife. They are supposed to be given the most love and respect from a man as well as his parents.
Husbands and wives are taught to live in harmony with each other in Islam. A husband is taught to respect his wife, support his wife fully, ask her for her advice, please her sexually before he thinks of himself only, make her laugh and flirt with her, respect her family and so many more things. Husbands and wives are taught to pray together with each other and create a home that will be of benefit to them, their children and the whole community. If there are ever arguments that get heated, the husband is talk to walk out of the room, period. There is no such thing as FIXING a marital argument by hitting anyone in Islam. Men are taught that their women (mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, nieces, etc) are "WEAK" in the sense that they have burdens that mean don't have that cause them to be easily exposed to harm in the society such as becoming pregnant, their weakness in physical strength compared to other men and their inclination to be emotional at times. Men are taught to LOVE this about them, but to have extra care and love for them. And as always in Islam, Husbands will be accountable to God Almighty for what they do with their children, their wives and their families.
May God forive me for any mistakes. Please visit www.sunnipath.com , www.zaytuna.com, www.islamicbookstore.com
Last commenter - thank you. This is what need - a dialog. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Muslim woman (American convert) and I'm tired of all these Islamic clerics make ridiculous statements. When I first converted, I was told that Islam doesn't have clerics. That's the ideal, anyway. No man who fears God will beat or rape his wife. On Judgment Day, the first thing he will be asked is how he treated his wife.
ReplyDeleteMost Muslim husband, btw, are kind and considerate. It's just the jerks who listen to stupid clerics that we have to worry about.
Thanks Linda for commenting - I post these questions and comments with one intention - get the conversation going - and get some reasonable people involved in that conversation.
ReplyDeleteI think it is important to remember that news reports are usually based on the extraordinary, not the ordinary - the exception rather than the rule. So it is those extremist views that make their way into the minds of the public since they are "newsworthy." If that is all the public is exposed to we should not be surprised by their skewed opinions.
Let's all marginalize these violent extremists and find common ground where we can all live in peace.
jr
I concur as a muslim man that you cannot beat your wife if she refuses to have sex with you. To add to that, muslim men are encouraged to emulate the perfect characteristics of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) who never ever hit his wife and he said that he is the best to his wives so we should learn from him.
ReplyDeleteHere is a link if you want to know how to truly be the best to your wife and this is for all men, regardless if your are a muslim or not.
http://islambyquestions.net/woman/Muhammad.htm
Dear Jack,
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on your mature, and more reasonable responses to the last few commentaries.
For every one insane,irrational Muslim that you can dig up, there'll be a hundred of us sane, rational Muslims to discuss this issue with you.
You have a lot of future left in you, take this opportunity to learn & educate yourself, rather than sitting around digging up obscure stories about ranting mad muslims....
I didn't watch the video (because stupid people piss me off), but I am Muslim and I don't think I could have put it any better than Anonymous at 6:01 PM.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, it was Prophet Muhammad who said to his companions "The best among you is he who treats his wife with kindness and respect."
When I was growing up, every once in a while I would come across a book by a "scholar" or cleric which was so inflammatory and sexist I'd feel terrified and struggle to understand why God would allow such injustice... It was all contrary to the Quran and the way I was raised and educated. Later on I realized that anything which didn't make sense to me probably had no basis in reality or genuine Islam anyway, and so far this outlook hasn't led me wrong.
There is nothing more dangerous than a combination of ignorance and religion, and I hope people use common sense and critical thinking in such cases (when the angel Gabriel conveyed God's message to the Prophet for the first time, the first word was "Read"; actually it came across more like a command. Knowledge is extremely important!).
Thanks for the encouragement - but please understand that I didn't work at all to find this "obscure" story - it found me. All I did was post it and make some comments because, as ignorant as I am, I wondered what in the heck this guy was saying, and why his message was the one to reach the public. As part of the public I watched the video and formed opinions, then asked for comments, and now we are talking about it. That is all I think it takes for us all to get along in peace. WE ALL WANT THE SAME THINGS.
ReplyDeleteJack Rabbit, you hit the nail on the head with your last comment "WE ALL WANT THE SAME THINGS"... that is essentially true in the most part. If people look past their prejudices they will see that everyone on earth just wants to live their life in peace with the families and get old and then leave peacefully. How about we all start a peoples movement against oppression in all its forms and against all corrupt governments and in their place put in good decent human beings who believe in truth and justice?
ReplyDeleteSigned,
A Muslim.
I work in the medical field--and when a medical team makes a mistake, no matter who did it, the nurse,the intern --the attending doctor has to take responsibility for the mistake of his team member. The husband has the same responsibility in Islam. He has to restrain his wife and children from serious errors. Nowhere does Islam say you bop your wife if she refuses to have sex or the dinner burns. But use of force has been sanctioned in case of serious problems--adultery being the most commonly cited cause. And it's stressed that force should be primarily token, intended to admonish and not hurt. Can you live with that? It's up to you to decide.
ReplyDeleteAs for sex, immature clerics do tend to misuse this. Islam does give the husband and wife sexual rights over one another---but the obligation is merely moral. No hitting, no use of force is sanctioned. This is simply to protect the rights of suffering husbands whose wives are simply "not in the mood" for prolonged periods, and the poor fellow, being muslim, cannot have an affair or even watch porno on TV. Similarly, the husband cannot neglect his wife sexually unless there is a real reason--illness or such. Unfortunately, you do not hear about the wife's right from male clerics ---but Islam is actually quite fair about this.
For starters, there is no official clergy in Islam. Then there is no compulsion on the part of the wife to have sex with the husband if she is not in a position to do so.
ReplyDeleteThere has to be mutual understanding between the parties.
The cleric who made that statement belongs to the category of uneducated mullas of whom, unfortunately, there are plenty all over the world. Most people do not listen to them anyway.
I would like to add a little footnote: the prophet Muhammad, a kindly person, is on record telling his companions never to hit their wives. "How can you hit them during the day and have sexual relations with them at night?" he asks. Obviously, Prophet Muhammad did not sanction hitting a woman to have sex.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, the Qur'an says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. " How can tranquility, love and mercy coexist with physical abuse and coercion? Is it probable?
I am a muslim man living in he west. Few years ago I ran a private business where I had to work over night. It happened many times that I get women coming at 2 and 3 o'clock a.m to buy cigarittes for their husbands and boy friends when it was minus 30 degrees. Muslim husbands would never do that no matter what. I once read an article about that 27% of women in the US got beaten by their husbands and boy friends during the period under study..and I bet you anything that such a percentage is nowhere to be found in the Islamic world. Islam gave the husband the right to hit his wife (not beat), but under so many conditions and constraints that it makes it more of a joke than anything else. It has to be with a bundle of hut as thick as your finger ring. You don't use your whole arm or raise it when you hit, rather you are allowed to raise only the area between your hand and the elbow. The area between your shoulder elbow must reamain glued to your body when you hit. It is more of touching your wife with this bundle than hitting or beating. it is more of a physical hush.
ReplyDeleteI certainly believe such "religious" teachings should be condemned and the true believers of a religion should stand up and set the record straight (as many of the previous posters have done), BUT I'll stop being offended by this scrutiny over Islam when the same scrutiny starts being applied to ALL religions -- Judaism especially.
ReplyDeleteAs they say, if you want to know where the true power lies, find out who you can't talk about. There is plenty of nitpicking of Islam and Christianity, but you almost never hear about people asking Jews to stand up and condemn the speeches of radical rabbis who endorse bombing civilian areas of Gaza because God commanded them to kill all the Amakelites ... Anyone who dares to call on Jews to condemn these types of statements is automatically labeled "anti-semitic". If there isn't going to be fair treatment for EVERYONE, then Muslims should just start screaming 'anti-semitism' (they are semitic peoples, too, for the most part and many Jews today aren't semitic -- so they qualify) and refuse to answer the question. The conditions placed on Muslims to constantly prove that they aren't evil and bent on world domination is akin to asking the Jews to constantly prove they aren't following the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
By the way, I am NOT Muslim (I'm Christian), but I am married to a Muslim. And my husband most certainly does NOT beat me. In fact, he has never even once called me a name (not even idiot or any mild insult) despite the fact that I have a temper and sadly have said many disrespectful things in the heat of anger -- though by his example I am inspired to be a better wife. Not because I fear him, but because I respect him.
When I was a teenager - living in Germany - I was confronted with such kind of absurd claims and prejudices about Islam.
ReplyDeleteIf knowledge is little, we use to believe lot of things.. So I was often shocked and confused..
There was a time I had a lot of doubts in my mind about Islam.
Because of that, I started to study my religion. This came so far, that I later studied Islamic Science at a German University.
Today I am about 30 years old.
I have found my answers and I hope everyone, who is really interessted in, will also.
I really found myself in Islam and especially the position of women concoured my heart.
It should make us think; that Islam in the public is repressented in the opposite..(!)
There is no religion, who orders EXPLICITLY to treat the woman (especially the mothers) the best, like in Islam.
This is a great topic in Islam, and Muslims know it, if they have just a bit notion about their religion.
This is, what Islam orders - what people makes of it, is another thing.
There are bad circumstances in islamic (or: so called islamic) countries.
But it is all over the world, also in non- muslim countries. But no one is blaming Christianity for it!
There are a lot of people, who intently talk nonsense to defame Islam or they have learned Islam from douptable sources.
We also have to make the difference between Islam and Culture. Sometimes, people make a mix of it and represent it as Islam.
There is a lot more to say..
but I stop it now.
However; thank you Jack, that you picked it up.
I do not agree with that, that we should ignore it.
Ignorance brought us to jet! We do not have the luxury, to lean on the chair, and say: Well, I know that this is bullshit, so I do not care!
We are living in a period of time, where we have the duty to make our positions clear for non-muslims AND MUSLIMS.
Only communication will help us, to understand each other.
HA,HA,HA,HA,You listening jack,that cleric is a jew imposter,you ever heard of jew imposters ????christian church is full of them. plus, accent,there aint no accent coming from the fakir,sounds so similar to another jew imposter peter andre, ho ho ho........................................
ReplyDelete"What are the rest of us supposed to think?"
ReplyDeleteJust don't think he represents all Muslims.
Conclusions:
ReplyDeleteAfter all this, one conclusion may reflect on our practical life: An advice to any man whether Muslim or not: Do not be fooled and ask the hand of a highly maintenance woman who worships her body, because either you are going to be prompt to cheat on her, or divorce her. I do not think that there is a non negligible number of men who will resort to force in an effort to acquire sex from their wives. Such a man would unerect unless being a masochist weirdo.
In modern countries, the commercially and moral-less oriented media gave rise to highly maintenance women being not an exception, but the common woman in the street and in our families. The statistics said that most of them heavily wear make-up and prioritize their body over their husbands if any. Plastic surgery is booming and bikinis are more important than one’s relationship with her husband, As a consequence, men follow, eat extra protein to gain striking muscles, try to get an arrogant ego and sense of humor, and get heavy credit card debts to buy an expensive nice truck to impress nice chicks.
In a world where the commonality now is that a man appreciates actually for his wife to wear extremely sexy cloths and being half naked when going out with him for a family dinner or to church, what would you try to resolve about problems in people’s view about Islam.
Islam will be just obviously a strange and weirdo religion. trying to defend Islam, which is indeed a religion based on divine wisdom and reason, in this kind of society is like trying to make grow a flower in …
"It is a fact that Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they bring about change in their own selves." Quran (13:11)